Monday, May 17, 2004
an email
I am averse to the dynasty politics but when I get emails like these , I cannot but respond..
here is the email
-------------------------
This is some information on prospective PM of India - Sonia Gandhi that
every Indian and at least every India lover must know.
1.. Sonia Gandhi is ONLY a high school graduate. It is not even sure if she is Matric pass or fail. Cambridge University has confirmed that they have no Sonia Maino on their alumni list.
2.. Her sister, Nadia Mario, who had never visited India before rushed to New Delhi, after Vajpayee govt.fell, to be by her side amidst reports that she might soon become India's Prime Minister.
3.. Should Sonia Gandhi become Prime Minister, her relatives in Italy would be fully entitled to round-the-clock protection by the Black Cat commandos at the Indian taxpayer's expense.
4.. She worked as an house maid in UK while taking classes to learn English in some no name school. She was from a poor family in Italy but now has almost as much money as Bill Gates (guess whose money is it).
5.. During the 1971 war, while all Indians stood ready to fight for the Indian cause Sonia Maino and her husband Rajiv Gandhi went on vacation in Italy.
6.. In 1977, when Indira Gandhi and Congress lost elections, Sonia Gandhi with her children and husband in tow took refuge of Italian embassy in New Delhi. Only after Indira Gandhi, Sanjay and his Indian wife Maneka convinced
her that they came back.
7.. Sonia married Rajiv in 1968 and was eligible to become Indian citizen 5 years later yet she did NOT become Indian citizen till 1984 I.e. 16 years after her marriage) This late bloom of Sonia's love for India also was
out of political consideration. In 1984, Rajiv, was heir apparent and most likely next Prime Minister. It would be awkward for a PM to have a foreigner wife. Voila, Sonia became an Indian Overnight.
8.. She has not given a single interview or offered any ideas on a single issue facing India now. Her only qualification is that she married a Gandhi. No newspaper has taken up the issue; no political party is opposing
this, people are falling in line as if this is nothing unusual.
9.. Sonia became an Indian citizen in 1984 but did not surrender her Italian citizenship. She continues to be simultaneously a citizen of India and Italy as Italian law does not require her to surrender her Italian citizenship
or passport. Simply put, Sonia is a dual citizen of India and Italy now dreaming of becoming the next Prime Minister of India (she can also legally become the prime minister of Italy!).
And here is my response.
--------------------------------
Please try and grow up,
try to accept the fact that she is our defacto PM already and any slander that we spread about her from now will only reflect on ourselves.
The anger that you feel would be more justifiably spent directed to the organisation that put her in the helm rather than to the person called Sonia.
What ever the qualifications of Sonia are, have the gumption to accept the will of the majority of India who do not see the flaws in the person of Sonia a sufficient detriment to cause her downfall or the downfall of the party which alofted her to the supreme post.
If India was meant to be rigid meritocracy rather than a democracy [as your first comment implies] we would probably have had that written in our constitution that we so proudly presented ourselves on the occasion of our becoming a repeblic. In fact if Mahatma discarding his angavastra is any indication, it is better to be nearer the actual condition of the poppulance rather than to be sitting in an ivory tower of honorary titles [which ofcource what the education degrees are. They are not the absolute benchmark upon which to test a persons lifetime knowledge]
Your second point, of her sister being at her side at the time of her most exiting&/stressful time [for the premier ship of India has a damocles sword perpetually hanging over it] demonstrates her ties with her family which we as Indians are so often proud of.
on your third point, Would you rather have it that the protection be removed and thus the Premier of India
be in effect be guided by her concern for the physical saftey of her family while deciding on matters of national
importance which may cause the enemity of worlds desparate organisations on her? Remember, the protection afforded
to the members of the family of a high official is not a status symbol perse, rather it is a device that the State
uses to make sure that its drivers are not motivated by any factor other than the well being of the State
The forth point that you raised gives me hope that she is much more closer to the common man than I had given her credit for, We *ARE NOT* an aristocracy which looks down upon manual labour, and if any thing that raises her esteem in my eyes. The subpoint that you note will be a concern if you can prove that it was acquired illegaly
from India, however, If two nation states [both India and Italy] can not find any thing illegal about her families money, then I am inclined to suspect that what you have raised is nothing but slander in its purest and darkest form.
On the subject of her taking refuge in the Italy, If in the aftermath of emergency, the anti-gandhi feelings ran high, I cann't blame her to think of the protection of her children first instead of putting on a mask of false bravado, Remember that she is a mother first and last. Had I been in a foreign country rocked by internal turmoils whose vortex was your own family I too would do the same. [And her concern is eminently born out by the sad incidents later]
Would you rather have an Indian throw away his Indian citizen ship for the slightest excuse? Would you do that? Ofcourse I know that many of us do that at the slightest pretext, but love of one's mother country cannot be constructed as a bad thing. Infact if any thing tells me that she would be a good Indian, It is the fact that she was a good Italian first.
She became Indian when she absolutely had to, and I don't find that necessarily bad.
The second last Issue that you have outlined is the only genuine concern that exists, and I hope and pray that she has able men at her side who are able to guide her and strengthen her hands and also to let the fate be a little more lenient to that family which has already suffered a lot.
For the last one, If it is illegal, then the courts of this country are strong enough to set it right. It is for nothing that the judiciary is one of the guardian triad in our constitution.
~Rahul~
---------------------------------------- ¶ 3:04 PM
here is the email
-------------------------
This is some information on prospective PM of India - Sonia Gandhi that
every Indian and at least every India lover must know.
1.. Sonia Gandhi is ONLY a high school graduate. It is not even sure if she is Matric pass or fail. Cambridge University has confirmed that they have no Sonia Maino on their alumni list.
2.. Her sister, Nadia Mario, who had never visited India before rushed to New Delhi, after Vajpayee govt.fell, to be by her side amidst reports that she might soon become India's Prime Minister.
3.. Should Sonia Gandhi become Prime Minister, her relatives in Italy would be fully entitled to round-the-clock protection by the Black Cat commandos at the Indian taxpayer's expense.
4.. She worked as an house maid in UK while taking classes to learn English in some no name school. She was from a poor family in Italy but now has almost as much money as Bill Gates (guess whose money is it).
5.. During the 1971 war, while all Indians stood ready to fight for the Indian cause Sonia Maino and her husband Rajiv Gandhi went on vacation in Italy.
6.. In 1977, when Indira Gandhi and Congress lost elections, Sonia Gandhi with her children and husband in tow took refuge of Italian embassy in New Delhi. Only after Indira Gandhi, Sanjay and his Indian wife Maneka convinced
her that they came back.
7.. Sonia married Rajiv in 1968 and was eligible to become Indian citizen 5 years later yet she did NOT become Indian citizen till 1984 I.e. 16 years after her marriage) This late bloom of Sonia's love for India also was
out of political consideration. In 1984, Rajiv, was heir apparent and most likely next Prime Minister. It would be awkward for a PM to have a foreigner wife. Voila, Sonia became an Indian Overnight.
8.. She has not given a single interview or offered any ideas on a single issue facing India now. Her only qualification is that she married a Gandhi. No newspaper has taken up the issue; no political party is opposing
this, people are falling in line as if this is nothing unusual.
9.. Sonia became an Indian citizen in 1984 but did not surrender her Italian citizenship. She continues to be simultaneously a citizen of India and Italy as Italian law does not require her to surrender her Italian citizenship
or passport. Simply put, Sonia is a dual citizen of India and Italy now dreaming of becoming the next Prime Minister of India (she can also legally become the prime minister of Italy!).
And here is my response.
--------------------------------
Please try and grow up,
try to accept the fact that she is our defacto PM already and any slander that we spread about her from now will only reflect on ourselves.
The anger that you feel would be more justifiably spent directed to the organisation that put her in the helm rather than to the person called Sonia.
What ever the qualifications of Sonia are, have the gumption to accept the will of the majority of India who do not see the flaws in the person of Sonia a sufficient detriment to cause her downfall or the downfall of the party which alofted her to the supreme post.
If India was meant to be rigid meritocracy rather than a democracy [as your first comment implies] we would probably have had that written in our constitution that we so proudly presented ourselves on the occasion of our becoming a repeblic. In fact if Mahatma discarding his angavastra is any indication, it is better to be nearer the actual condition of the poppulance rather than to be sitting in an ivory tower of honorary titles [which ofcource what the education degrees are. They are not the absolute benchmark upon which to test a persons lifetime knowledge]
Your second point, of her sister being at her side at the time of her most exiting&/stressful time [for the premier ship of India has a damocles sword perpetually hanging over it] demonstrates her ties with her family which we as Indians are so often proud of.
on your third point, Would you rather have it that the protection be removed and thus the Premier of India
be in effect be guided by her concern for the physical saftey of her family while deciding on matters of national
importance which may cause the enemity of worlds desparate organisations on her? Remember, the protection afforded
to the members of the family of a high official is not a status symbol perse, rather it is a device that the State
uses to make sure that its drivers are not motivated by any factor other than the well being of the State
The forth point that you raised gives me hope that she is much more closer to the common man than I had given her credit for, We *ARE NOT* an aristocracy which looks down upon manual labour, and if any thing that raises her esteem in my eyes. The subpoint that you note will be a concern if you can prove that it was acquired illegaly
from India, however, If two nation states [both India and Italy] can not find any thing illegal about her families money, then I am inclined to suspect that what you have raised is nothing but slander in its purest and darkest form.
On the subject of her taking refuge in the Italy, If in the aftermath of emergency, the anti-gandhi feelings ran high, I cann't blame her to think of the protection of her children first instead of putting on a mask of false bravado, Remember that she is a mother first and last. Had I been in a foreign country rocked by internal turmoils whose vortex was your own family I too would do the same. [And her concern is eminently born out by the sad incidents later]
Would you rather have an Indian throw away his Indian citizen ship for the slightest excuse? Would you do that? Ofcourse I know that many of us do that at the slightest pretext, but love of one's mother country cannot be constructed as a bad thing. Infact if any thing tells me that she would be a good Indian, It is the fact that she was a good Italian first.
She became Indian when she absolutely had to, and I don't find that necessarily bad.
The second last Issue that you have outlined is the only genuine concern that exists, and I hope and pray that she has able men at her side who are able to guide her and strengthen her hands and also to let the fate be a little more lenient to that family which has already suffered a lot.
For the last one, If it is illegal, then the courts of this country are strong enough to set it right. It is for nothing that the judiciary is one of the guardian triad in our constitution.
~Rahul~
---------------------------------------- ¶ 3:04 PM
Comments:
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It is quite difficult to defend Sonia's actions from the time she was married to Rajiv until this time, but
the rub lies in the fact that she is now the elected representative of the lower house who commands a majority. How so ever we might wish it,
we can not undo it, for the majority of India has seen it fit to repose their collective faith in her.
That leaves us with two options, one that the national majority was right and we were wrong in saying that Sonia's candidature is the issue
of paramount importance, or the other one , that the national majority was wrong in electing her.
If there is one requirement for a democracy to work correctly, it is the basic premise that the majority poppulance understands the pros and
cones of at least the largest issues at hand, It is due to this reason that democracy only works in countries that have a very high maturity level,
I would rather like to admit that I was wrong to think that Sonia's Candidature was a critical issue than to think that we have not yet reached
that civilizational maturity that is required to nuture democracy.
That is also the reason I am willing to give her the benifit of doubt and let her earn her place as a leader of people. In effect that is the long
rope that we as a people can give which she can use to either achieve something for the country or hang herself, as what happened after the emergency
for Indira.
That said, Gurumurthy is an atriculate person who has quite a few articles to his credit, I do not subscribe to his theory of India trying to come to terms with the nation-
state as I believe that India has already customized it to suit her own needs the same way we have customized communism and made it
acceptable to a democratic society. A person will not come to the helm in India unless she or he has the approval and mandate of a majority and that is
comforting enough, India I believe as a country does not need to be hand holded to her destiny.
please take a look at this URL too again by the same author and a similar topic. But much more interesting.
http://www.newindpress.com/column/Column.asp?ID=IEU20040417041345&P=old&By=S+Gurumurthy
the rub lies in the fact that she is now the elected representative of the lower house who commands a majority. How so ever we might wish it,
we can not undo it, for the majority of India has seen it fit to repose their collective faith in her.
That leaves us with two options, one that the national majority was right and we were wrong in saying that Sonia's candidature is the issue
of paramount importance, or the other one , that the national majority was wrong in electing her.
If there is one requirement for a democracy to work correctly, it is the basic premise that the majority poppulance understands the pros and
cones of at least the largest issues at hand, It is due to this reason that democracy only works in countries that have a very high maturity level,
I would rather like to admit that I was wrong to think that Sonia's Candidature was a critical issue than to think that we have not yet reached
that civilizational maturity that is required to nuture democracy.
That is also the reason I am willing to give her the benifit of doubt and let her earn her place as a leader of people. In effect that is the long
rope that we as a people can give which she can use to either achieve something for the country or hang herself, as what happened after the emergency
for Indira.
That said, Gurumurthy is an atriculate person who has quite a few articles to his credit, I do not subscribe to his theory of India trying to come to terms with the nation-
state as I believe that India has already customized it to suit her own needs the same way we have customized communism and made it
acceptable to a democratic society. A person will not come to the helm in India unless she or he has the approval and mandate of a majority and that is
comforting enough, India I believe as a country does not need to be hand holded to her destiny.
please take a look at this URL too again by the same author and a similar topic. But much more interesting.
http://www.newindpress.com/column/Column.asp?ID=IEU20040417041345&P=old&By=S+Gurumurthy
Its easy to say - its difficult to defend Sonia's actions in the past. But the reality goes like - we judge people by their actions done in their past. Thats what we all do in our
daily life. To be frank, I am not blindly opposing Sonia and accept the fact that She IS the leader (reader?) of the single largest party in the post poll scenario. It is just
that we can't afford to take a chance by giving 'benefit of doubt' at this level.
She might be the only factor which keeps the Congress party united(?). But what gives her that ability? Majority of us think its only 'cuz she belongs to Gandhi family. And now
people are saying Rahul gandhi is going to become Gen. Secretary of INC. What was his contribution to Congress party? It is not just Sonia or Rahul. Its happening everywhere..
Karunakaran, Murali, Padmaja, Madhava Rao Scindhia-Jytothi Raj Scindhia... list is too long and it doesn't stop with only one party... We need to get out of this 'Family' thingy..
We might reach there when we attain 'civilizational maturity'
But as you said - the reality is Sonia is going to be our PM and lets accepts the same. But that doesn't mean we do not express our thoughts and wishes. We all are 'free' to do it.
Expressing one's thoughts doesn't mean that he is not 'grown up' :D. Its just that it is a different view.
I think declaring the PM candidate much before the elections could be a better idea as we don't have the 'direct' rights to elect the person who is going to hold the supreme power.
-Sanjeev
daily life. To be frank, I am not blindly opposing Sonia and accept the fact that She IS the leader (reader?) of the single largest party in the post poll scenario. It is just
that we can't afford to take a chance by giving 'benefit of doubt' at this level.
She might be the only factor which keeps the Congress party united(?). But what gives her that ability? Majority of us think its only 'cuz she belongs to Gandhi family. And now
people are saying Rahul gandhi is going to become Gen. Secretary of INC. What was his contribution to Congress party? It is not just Sonia or Rahul. Its happening everywhere..
Karunakaran, Murali, Padmaja, Madhava Rao Scindhia-Jytothi Raj Scindhia... list is too long and it doesn't stop with only one party... We need to get out of this 'Family' thingy..
We might reach there when we attain 'civilizational maturity'
But as you said - the reality is Sonia is going to be our PM and lets accepts the same. But that doesn't mean we do not express our thoughts and wishes. We all are 'free' to do it.
Expressing one's thoughts doesn't mean that he is not 'grown up' :D. Its just that it is a different view.
I think declaring the PM candidate much before the elections could be a better idea as we don't have the 'direct' rights to elect the person who is going to hold the supreme power.
-Sanjeev
# posted by 
: 11:40 AM
: 11:40 AM
Attempting to explain a persons ineligibility at holding the PM's post based
on the fact(?) that she had worked as a maid, doest have a formal degree etc
definitely is immature, IMHO, and needs a fair amount of "growing up" in my
book. And "grow up" is often used to mean just what you said - "face the
realities".
And remember that your freedom ends where my nose starts. So villifying a
person and sending hate emails is _NOT_ an act of freedom, IMHO.
[quote] Congress party? It is not just Sonia or Rahul. Its happening
everywhere.. Karunakaran, Murali, Padmaja, Madhava Rao
Scindhia-Jytothi Raj Scindhia... list is too long and it doesn't stop
with only one party... We need to get out of this 'Family' thingy..
We might reach there when we attain 'civilizational maturity'
[/quote]
Now, _that_ probably is the point of the whole thing, and is probably more
worth-discussing. But remember that this is nothing isolated to India .. the
whole subcontinent has this very same problem. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh
and Sri Lanka has had dynastical rulers in a democratic setup (well, in the
breif spells when Pakistan chooses democracy, that is :). So what do you
say? Is this something embedded deep in our physche? I'd like to hear your
comments.
And while we are it, BEWARE THE COLUMBIAN Shes slept with a Gandhi, so
she has the minimum qualification to become a PM.
~Binil
on the fact(?) that she had worked as a maid, doest have a formal degree etc
definitely is immature, IMHO, and needs a fair amount of "growing up" in my
book. And "grow up" is often used to mean just what you said - "face the
realities".
And remember that your freedom ends where my nose starts. So villifying a
person and sending hate emails is _NOT_ an act of freedom, IMHO.
[quote] Congress party? It is not just Sonia or Rahul. Its happening
everywhere.. Karunakaran, Murali, Padmaja, Madhava Rao
Scindhia-Jytothi Raj Scindhia... list is too long and it doesn't stop
with only one party... We need to get out of this 'Family' thingy..
We might reach there when we attain 'civilizational maturity'
[/quote]
Now, _that_ probably is the point of the whole thing, and is probably more
worth-discussing. But remember that this is nothing isolated to India .. the
whole subcontinent has this very same problem. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh
and Sri Lanka has had dynastical rulers in a democratic setup (well, in the
breif spells when Pakistan chooses democracy, that is :). So what do you
say? Is this something embedded deep in our physche? I'd like to hear your
comments.
And while we are it, BEWARE THE COLUMBIAN Shes slept with a Gandhi, so
she has the minimum qualification to become a PM.
~Binil
# posted by : 11:47 AM
: 11:47 AM
The difference between the first mail and S.Gurumurthi's article is that the first is pure slander, and as such it makes even neutral parties take the side of the person being slandered.
[quote]
>> Congress party? It is not just Sonia or Rahul. Its happening
>> everywhere.. Karunakaran, Murali, Padmaja, Madhava Rao
>> Scindhia-Jytothi Raj Scindhia... list is too long and it doesn't stop
>> with only one party... We need to get out of this 'Family' thingy..
>> We might reach there when we attain 'civilizational maturity'
>
> Now, _that_ probably is the point of the whole thing, and is probably
> more
> worth-discussing. But remember that this is nothing isolated to India ..
> the
> whole subcontinent has this very same problem. India, Pakistan,
> Bangladesh
> and Sri Lanka has had dynastical rulers in a democratic setup (well, in
> the
> breif spells when Pakistan chooses democracy, that is :). So what do you
> say? Is this something embedded deep in our physche? I'd like to hear
> your
> comments.
>
[/quote]
I believe it has more to do with the need of the people to see a continuity, and a reluctance to face drastic changes. It seems it is easier for them [speaking as a third person] easier to find that in a family than in a party unless that party itself is so consolidated remember the kennedies in US, and the royalty in many western *democracies* that refuces to die.. Even australia which had a chance to throw off the yoke retains the connection with the english royalty. remember also that even now in japan, shinto is the national religion, and emperor holds a great clout, possibly more than the premier himself. China an Russia probably have done the same but for the fact that
they have already disposed off their royals. [Even that has not diminished the search for Evanoves in russia] What we lack in royals [there are too many with none powerful/national enough] we make up for in dynastic politics [think of kennedies and bush family in US [which also finds itself in a similar predicament]]
I also suspect that the continuation of vortexes of power [as evinced by dynasty politics and royalty] is some thing that is caused by a deeper layer of subconcious or by a meta polity consciousness. The society probably becomes more stable as the vortex of power is not shifted about, and the easiest way of doing it is to go the
dynasty way.
[It is only in Man that the dynasties arise, the primates and other animals do not follow such a model probably because
they do not have the same level of awareness to cause a meta conciousness to arise.]
carl jung's ideas of collective conciousness may help explain some of these.. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung]
However I do believe the fact that the vote that was given, was not against the rule of BJP but was rather due to the disastrous alliances that it made, which makes me all the more certain that we need to go in for a presidential form of government. [The two tier system is one designed for hand-holding a nation through relatively young democratic experimentation period when the voters participating the elections can not understand the major issues and thus judge the major contestants by their position. It is thought that the business of electing the premier can not be left to the common man but has to go through a layer so that the higher echelons of the society has a say in it.]
The democracy like communism is an utopia, it can never be achieved completely,[As in when the combatants are judged truly by their actions alone and not by their pedigree or the party they are in (The vote bank politics is not truly a part of the democracy as espoused by western thinkers {not that they are the last word, but that the democracy concept as adopted by india was copied from the models followed by britain and US which are western.})],
Post a Comment
[quote]
>> Congress party? It is not just Sonia or Rahul. Its happening
>> everywhere.. Karunakaran, Murali, Padmaja, Madhava Rao
>> Scindhia-Jytothi Raj Scindhia... list is too long and it doesn't stop
>> with only one party... We need to get out of this 'Family' thingy..
>> We might reach there when we attain 'civilizational maturity'
>
> Now, _that_ probably is the point of the whole thing, and is probably
> more
> worth-discussing. But remember that this is nothing isolated to India ..
> the
> whole subcontinent has this very same problem. India, Pakistan,
> Bangladesh
> and Sri Lanka has had dynastical rulers in a democratic setup (well, in
> the
> breif spells when Pakistan chooses democracy, that is :). So what do you
> say? Is this something embedded deep in our physche? I'd like to hear
> your
> comments.
>
[/quote]
I believe it has more to do with the need of the people to see a continuity, and a reluctance to face drastic changes. It seems it is easier for them [speaking as a third person] easier to find that in a family than in a party unless that party itself is so consolidated remember the kennedies in US, and the royalty in many western *democracies* that refuces to die.. Even australia which had a chance to throw off the yoke retains the connection with the english royalty. remember also that even now in japan, shinto is the national religion, and emperor holds a great clout, possibly more than the premier himself. China an Russia probably have done the same but for the fact that
they have already disposed off their royals. [Even that has not diminished the search for Evanoves in russia] What we lack in royals [there are too many with none powerful/national enough] we make up for in dynastic politics [think of kennedies and bush family in US [which also finds itself in a similar predicament]]
I also suspect that the continuation of vortexes of power [as evinced by dynasty politics and royalty] is some thing that is caused by a deeper layer of subconcious or by a meta polity consciousness. The society probably becomes more stable as the vortex of power is not shifted about, and the easiest way of doing it is to go the
dynasty way.
[It is only in Man that the dynasties arise, the primates and other animals do not follow such a model probably because
they do not have the same level of awareness to cause a meta conciousness to arise.]
carl jung's ideas of collective conciousness may help explain some of these.. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung]
However I do believe the fact that the vote that was given, was not against the rule of BJP but was rather due to the disastrous alliances that it made, which makes me all the more certain that we need to go in for a presidential form of government. [The two tier system is one designed for hand-holding a nation through relatively young democratic experimentation period when the voters participating the elections can not understand the major issues and thus judge the major contestants by their position. It is thought that the business of electing the premier can not be left to the common man but has to go through a layer so that the higher echelons of the society has a say in it.]
The democracy like communism is an utopia, it can never be achieved completely,[As in when the combatants are judged truly by their actions alone and not by their pedigree or the party they are in (The vote bank politics is not truly a part of the democracy as espoused by western thinkers {not that they are the last word, but that the democracy concept as adopted by india was copied from the models followed by britain and US which are western.})],
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